TGO - Episode 31: "What's The Difference?"
By moviebob on January 11, 2010, 12:49 am | More of this show
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Modern franchise games like Madden avoid innovation like the plague. "Retrogames" ignore innovations because... that's kind of the point. Is there a difference? Does it matter?
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N4ughtyBl0gger Jan 11, 2010 at 1:01 am |
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jamiek321321 Jan 11, 2010 at 10:28 am |
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N4ughtyBl0gger Jan 11, 2010 at 6:24 pm |
http://www.destructoid.com/ea-sports-bringing-an-innovative-and-new-take-on-madden--160189.phtml
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Chaos Knux Feb 14, 2010 at 5:27 pm |
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Ivan2294 Jan 11, 2010 at 4:09 pm |
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RadicalDreamer Jan 11, 2010 at 7:52 pm |
i myself am more of a basketball fan than soccer or football.
and i agree with your point. it's not worth buying every year.
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Oompa-Chalupa Jan 11, 2010 at 10:59 pm |
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RadicalDreamer Jan 12, 2010 at 1:23 am |
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OMNI-shred Jan 11, 2010 at 1:02 am |
PS: love your show
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Pigmy Wurm Jan 11, 2010 at 1:38 am |
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Pigmy Wurm Jan 11, 2010 at 1:36 am |
Now, I too fall into the retro camp. I heard reviews of New Supper Mario wii that said it was basically more of the same and at first was discouraged and though about not getting it, and then realized that I didn't care if it was the same and got it anyway. In the end I liked it, although I felt it had a weird feel to it, like I was playing a "Mario" themed Mario game, if that makes any sense.
Now, as far a sports games go, and madden in particular I haven't really played them since early in the game cube era, since I never owned them, and never really desired to, but I did enjoy playing them every once and a while at my friends house. Now to me every sports game of a particular type feels the same, some seem to work better, some work worse, but they all feel the same. I can enjoy them, but I don't think I can really appreciate any innovation that they put into it. For example, my roommate plays a lot of basket ball game, and he gets them from different companies, EA and 2K mainly. I have barely played them and to me they feel the same, I can't see the innovation that is their, I can't tell what is different between one game and another. But, to him they are radically different.
(and I am working to a point, bear with me on this)
But, this isn't the only type of game that I feel like this with. I can barely feel the difference between Shmups. Some are faster or slower, the graphics are nicer in some than in others, they might have a different power up mechanic, but to me it feels like more or less the same game put out again and again. Their are also people who feel that way about RPG's particularly JRPG's, they see that the fight system is still turn based, they think the male main character still looks like a oddly dressed girl, and the plot still seems to revolve around a group of teenagers saving the world from an evil empire and/or a demon god.
My point is (and I realize that this has turned into a blog post in it's own right) is that while Madden and similar sports games could definitely innovate a bit more what they are basically doing is refining the formula and updating the "characters." And that is important. The same way that a Madden fan might not be able to tell (or care about) the difference between Cloud, Squall, and Zidane while JRPG fans see them as important changes I really don't care if Green Bay has a different Defensive line up from one year to the next, but they do. Many of these guys live vicariously through their home teams, players, and fantasy draft teams. Don't say this out loud to them, but main have a completely nerdy obsession with a particular sport that rivals many trekkies and Otakus.
Now, all that said I do agree with your overall point, I just thought you could have delved into both sides a bit more, and I do feel that the people who say the two groups are similar have a point, especially in the case of the types of fans who think that all games no matter what should just stay how they were in the mid 90's or late 80's or whenever they were playing them first and companies that are more than willing to cater to that audience instead of putting out new stuff.
Edit: Wow this is really long, sorry.
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N4ughtyBl0gger Jan 11, 2010 at 1:40 am |
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dr_woodz Jan 11, 2010 at 8:15 am |
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Waffle Gamer Jan 11, 2010 at 10:37 am |
Pigmy Wurm said…
I was originally going to comment on my thoughts about how the two (madden and retro games) are different, this was before I saw the entire video. but seeing that what I thought was going to be a debate between the two ideas was instead you attacking a point that I haven't really heard before I am instead going to play a bit of devils advocate because I think you brought up a really cool idea, but then didn't go anywhere with it (you are in fact supposed to Overthink things).
Now, I too fall into the retro camp. I heard reviews of New Supper Mario wii that said it was basically more of the same and at first was discouraged and though about not getting it, and then realized that I didn't care if it was the same and got it anyway. In the end I liked it, although I felt it had a weird feel to it, like I was playing a "Mario" themed Mario game, if that makes any sense.
Now, as far a sports games go, and madden in particular I haven't really played them since early in the game cube era, since I never owned them, and never really desired to, but I did enjoy playing them every once and a while at my friends house. Now to me every sports game of a particular type feels the same, some seem to work better, some work worse, but they all feel the same. I can enjoy them, but I don't think I can really appreciate any innovation that they put into it. For example, my roommate plays a lot of basket ball game, and he gets them from different companies, EA and 2K mainly. I have barely played them and to me they feel the same, I can't see the innovation that is their, I can't tell what is different between one game and another. But, to him they are radically different.
(and I am working to a point, bear with me on this)
But, this isn't the only type of game that I feel like this with. I can barely feel the difference between Shmups. Some are faster or slower, the graphics are nicer in some than in others, they might have a different power up mechanic, but to me it feels like more or less the same game put out again and again. Their are also people who feel that way about RPG's particularly JRPG's, they see that the fight system is still turn based, they think the male main character still looks like a oddly dressed girl, and the plot still seems to revolve around a group of teenagers saving the world from an evil empire and/or a demon god.
My point is (and I realize that this has turned into a blog post in it's own right) is that while Madden and similar sports games could definitely innovate a bit more what they are basically doing is refining the formula and updating the "characters." And that is important. The same way that a Madden fan might not be able to tell (or care about) the difference between Cloud, Squall, and Zidane while JRPG fans see them as important changes I really don't care if Green Bay has a different Defensive line up from one year to the next, but they do. Many of these guys live vicariously through their home teams, players, and fantasy draft teams. Don't say this out loud to them, but main have a completely nerdy obsession with a particular sport that rivals many trekkies and Otakus.
Now, all that said I do agree with your overall point, I just thought you could have delved into both sides a bit more, and I do feel that the people who say the two groups are similar have a point, especially in the case of the types of fans who think that all games no matter what should just stay how they were in the mid 90's or late 80's or whenever they were playing them first and companies that are more than willing to cater to that audience instead of putting out new stuff.
Edit: Wow this is really long, sorry.
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Ben Jan 11, 2010 at 11:45 am |
Waffle Gamer said…
Nobody will read it,sorry.
lol ive always wanted to post that
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fabio73 Jan 11, 2010 at 12:38 pm |
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lazinessrulez Jan 11, 2010 at 6:46 pm |
with the 8 bits, sound, and the quarterback saying huthuthut endleslly.
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Pigmy Wurm Jan 11, 2010 at 12:36 pm |
And I don't really care much. It was late, I was kind of tierd, and so I just rambled.
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GameXmasteR Jan 11, 2010 at 3:20 pm |
Waffle Gamer said…
Nobody will read it,sorry.
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darkman Jan 11, 2010 at 6:40 pm |
Waffle Gamer said…
Nobody will read it,sorry.
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roadkillblues Jan 12, 2010 at 12:35 am |
Waffle Gamer said…
Nobody will read it,sorry.
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Mii Jan 12, 2010 at 8:22 pm |
p.s. i didnt
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JesseRobles Jan 11, 2010 at 2:32 pm |
Another example are fighting games.
My brother plays a lot FPS and Action/Adventure games, and he always criticize that fighting games are all the same. But since I love fighting games, I can tell the HUGE differences between each franchises.
So, great video from The Overthinker. And great comment by you, Pigmy
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Pigmy Wurm Jan 11, 2010 at 7:39 pm |
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sythebladeangel Jan 11, 2010 at 1:37 am |
In my opinion, releasing these games every now and then is fine as long as they continue what they were already doing.
And yes, madden does suck :P
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Wally_Llama Jan 11, 2010 at 2:00 am |
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KojimaMetalGearfan1987 Jan 11, 2010 at 2:12 am |
This gets my 11 for the day
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Animeplayer Jan 11, 2010 at 2:15 am |
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RagingPhonetic Jan 11, 2010 at 9:32 am |
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Animeplayer Jan 11, 2010 at 11:13 pm |
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drunkengamers09 Jan 11, 2010 at 3:57 am |
besides:
halo 1: only a campain and 4 player local multiplayer
halo 2: keeps what halo 1 had but with a online multiplayer, new levels and maps
halo 3: every thing above but adds being able to play the campain online and forge and being able to watch matches back
so dont say it doesent change because i does
but besides that still a great vid as allways
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Drath Jan 11, 2010 at 4:58 am |
Same thing with the "throwback" games. there isn't really any innovation in them, there practically an old retro game with a few new things thrown in. Not much a step forward in gaming as far as innovation goes but there still fun games to play and at least there whole new games compared to the ones released before it. NSMBW isnt the same game as SMB3 but madden 2010 is the same as madden 2009.
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bleak54 Jan 11, 2010 at 5:05 am |
I'll use the NHL series as my example because this year that's where most of my time has been spent but I've probably got 100 hours into the game. If they only changed the logo and rosters I'd still be getting good value for the game regardless of how much was actually put into it. That being said the team at EA did a really good job updating the game in very subtle ways to really make it play a lot better than 09 did.
Here's what I think you're missing here though. You don't play Madden or NHL etc. so you're not getting a feel for the game. Without playing the game to the point where you know it totally inside and out you won't be able to pickup the differences in the gameplay and it won't feel any different than the year before it. To the Madden fan though the game will feel new, fresh and well worth the pricetag. Your mom and mine probably wouldn't see any difference in Mario 1, 3 and the New one on Wii other than the obvious visual difference but to the seasoned gamer they feel like 3 almost totally different games because of the addition suits and subtle shifts in control mechanics.
Don't forget that games like Bioshock are funded by 2k having yearly sports games. Just because one game is much more profitable than another doesn't mean the value is any worse either. Bioshock won't even touch the 2k basketball franchise for the development time it took (2 or 3 years) in profit but again that doesn't mean the basketball games are a ripoff either. If you don't have games that can make consistent money you won't see new ip's as well funded and made as bioshock was.
I'd also like to point out that the two biggest target games in your rant, Halo and Madden along with their respective genre's are responsible for almost all of the tech you see in games today. Without FPS games we never would have had Quake, and without Quake there 3d tech on a consumer level is probably still miles behind what it is today.
Under the hood Madden pushes the limits of the consoles and it always has. Because of Madden we have things like Motion Capture. Because of Halo we have consoles with the online abilities of today, which led to the recent revival of the virtual console and old classics. One of the biggest thigns Madden has done is advance animation, even outside of Motion Capture, with the tech to have animations be changed dynamically inside of the games code and still look good, this means you don't see a million canned animations in games amd it creates a much more real and live feel to games of today.
I love watching your show TGO but I think you missed the boat pretty badly on this one. For all it's faults Madden has a long history of making positive impact after positive impact in the gaming industry, even if you don't actually like the game itself. Sports games really do very little to affect the games industry as a whole other than reliable cash sources for publishers to fund smaller unknown titles and advance the way games are made in a good way.
FPS games with space marines taking up half the store shelves is something totally different, but before you pin that on Halo remember that there was a time when half the store shelves were platformers in Mario's prime as well.
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jello44 Jan 11, 2010 at 2:28 pm |
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Etcetera Jan 11, 2010 at 6:29 pm |
jello44 said…
Hey look, someone with some sense. We need more people like you around, instead of the same old 'DURR SAEM GAEM DURR"
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jello44 Jan 11, 2010 at 7:45 pm |
To YOU it may not be worth it, but to others it is.
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Etcetera Jan 12, 2010 at 1:23 am |
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bleak54 Jan 11, 2010 at 9:16 pm |
That's what people don't get, or seem to have an answer for. The fact that sports games have made a huge impact on the video game world. Madden is just as important as Mario has been to the industry.
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Etcetera Jan 12, 2010 at 1:19 am |
bleak54 said…
I wouldn't buy NHL every year if it wasn't improved on every year. In fact I did skip 2002 through 2007 because it just wasn't that good. To me NHL 10 was easily worth the money. Hell the PS3 was partially kept afloat early by the MLB exclusive game Sony made.
That's what people don't get, or seem to have an answer for. The fact that sports games have made a huge impact on the video game world. Madden is just as important as Mario has been to the industry.
Some games even deteriorated when a new year came, not just with the new rosters. I'm not a real sports gamer myself(since if I want to play sports, I'll play them instead of playing a game about said sport), but aside from a few new features, FIFA 08 was better than FIFA 10. It's a new trend to make the smallest text on console systems, so that alone made my eyes hurt after playing 10.
"The fact that sports games have made a huge impact on the video game world."
Like which ones?
"oh and madden wouldnt suck as much if you had special attacks where you
could explode the ball when an interception was made or a player turns
into a monster truck and sacks the quarterback. better yet, lets have
the one guy 10 yards from the goal, your men are unable to catch him,
your qb goes into slow motion and busts out a sniper rifle and you get
to try and stop him."
But that wouldn't make it as realistic, now would it? The Madden games try to make it as realistic as possible, which disappoints since reality blows for the most part.
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jello44 Jan 12, 2010 at 2:05 am |
Go drive a car instead of racing games.
Go join the military if you want to shoot people.
and the most popular one of all :
Go play real guitar instead of Guitar Hero/Rock Band
etc.
Plus, it's hard to grab a bunch of people and go play a sport at 2am.
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Etcetera Jan 12, 2010 at 6:24 pm |
jello44 said…
Oh come on, you really didn't just drop the "I'll go do X activity" did you? What's wrong with doing both? I used to do both when I was younger, though I can't really anymore due to spinal cord issues. You can pretty much make that argument for any video game (except RPGs obviously).
Go drive a car instead of racing games.
Go join the military if you want to shoot people.
and the most popular one of all :
Go play real guitar instead of Guitar Hero/Rock Band
etc.
Plus, it's hard to grab a bunch of people and go play a sport at 2am.
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Zyph73 Jan 13, 2010 at 1:05 am |
My main gripe with that is does take off some innovation opportunity of everything else with the focus so shifted. Ah well, I'll stop there before I get too rambly.
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Yargling Jan 11, 2010 at 6:04 am |
As for Madden, I do think its over milked, but if the customers of it are going to buy it year after year, fair enough - I don't like it myself, but its not for me. The only part I don't beyond the games themselves is the fact it pulls in the people who collectively bullied us back in school for being nerdy, etc.
But anywho, retrogaming...meh, there aren't alot of games that I go "Wow, that was so good it hasn't been topped yet", like Deus Ex, Vampire: The Masquerade (with the fan patches), etc, etc...
But even then, I look at the graphics and go "Wow, I wish it had something present." Even moreso for pixels; to me, its just crazy to go so far back in the presentation of gaming...
I don't think retrogamers are holding the industry back, I think the fickle gamers, the current economic climate, and the industry itself are holding gaming back. Especially when it comes to single player - too many people just go "OMG, NO MULTI PLAYER, RENT ONLY!!!!" and then wonder why everyone (including poor Tim Schafners game Brutal Legend) feel the need to tack on a multiplayer every time. That said, Modern Warfare 2's single player is a step back, and its PC multiplayer is a slap to the face.
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arrancaro Jan 11, 2010 at 6:39 pm |
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